An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
Fred:
Greetings, and welcome to another Author Interview here at Books At a Glance. If you read theology much at all you have probably wished, you could read through all sixteen volumes of John Owen. Well, that will be our task this year at Books At a Glance, only we’ll do it in small, summarized pieces.
We’ll talk more about that later, but first, we thought we would talk to two men who have actually read through all of Owen themselves. Dr. Ryan Kelly is with us from Albuquerque, NM, and Dr. Stephen West is with us from Madoc, Ontario.
Steve is the one who has produced the summaries of Owen that we will post each week throughout this year, and so I have to say, first, Steve, congratulations on an outstanding accomplishment!
West:
Thanks, Fred.
Zaspel:
Not many people will ever read through all the works of John Owen, and here you’ve read and summarized them! I must tell you, it’s really impressive.
I don’t recall exactly—how long did it take you to do all this, start to finish?
West:
I appreciate your willingness to take this on with me and I was not quite sure it was something we could do. It took under six months to read and summarize them. It took me about 100 pages a day of reading. Owen’s writing kind of pulls you along.
Zaspel:
Ryan, tell us about your own background with Owen. What was your initial interest, and tell us about your doctoral work on Owen?
Kelly:
My first interest in Owen started in college with reading J.I. Packer’s little book, A Quest for Godliness. I gave this to my friend Sarah who eventually would become my wife. I get made fun of for giving her a book on the Puritans at the start of our relationship. Owen worked on melding doctrine and devotion. As I began to think about doctoral studies, I thought, “I am enjoying Goodwin and Owen. I will just try to narrow something down on one of those two guys.” I worked on Owen’s ecclesiology.
Over the years the umbrella spread a little bit bigger than just his ecclesiology. I ended up with a dissertation called Reformed and Reforming. It was on John Owen and his work on the kingdom of Christ. I took this motif of the kingdom of Christ and gave a historical, theological analysis of Owen. Then I focused on the kingdom of Christ applied to national, ecclesiastical politics especially in the 1650s. Then I dove into the kingdom of Christ applied in local church polity, especially the keys of the kingdom in Matthew 16. Then I worked on the kingdom of Christ thought of eschatologically. The coming of the kingdom, in Owen’s thought, was called later day glory as they called it back then. We call this postmillennialism.
I used Owen as a test case in terms of his representation of that era of the reformation. In all these areas I mentioned, Owen not only reformed the past of what the magisterial reformers held to but in many ways, he reformed himself. He changed his views. He is a good test case for reformed and reforming.
Zaspel:
Ryan, situate Owen for us historically and then religiously. Where is he in the flow of Reformed thought? And where is he within the broader Puritanism of his age?
Kelly:
He was born in 1616 and died in 1683. He lived his adult life through days of civil wars, the interregnum, the protectorate period of Oliver Cromwell, the restoration, the Puritan ejection, and the persecution that followed in 1662. He lived in tumultuous days. I think of him as a man of the second or third generation of the reformation. He was born almost 100 years after Luther’s 95 theses.
He was reformed and became a Congregationalist after having been a Presbyterian after the mid 1640’s. He fit in the reformed project by being a great representation of the classically reformed, especially on doctrinal matters like atonement and justification. He is most famous for his book on limited atonement. However, when you get to more practical issues of spirituality, ecclesiology, eschatology, and religious liberty he was more progressive than the magisterial reformers.
Zaspel:
This is for both of you: Talk to us about Owen’s work—let’s start with content. Give us a sense of the range of issues he addressed, his usual approach, and his most outstanding contributions.
West:
One thing that impressed me about Owen is that he really covered the gamut. He ran the range of theological and doctrinal issues. Some of his work particularly in Christology is very orthodox, helpful, and insightful even for today. There are things that Owen said about the nature of Jesus Christ and his purpose and work that is very well worth exploring. It is not just window dressing for contemporary theology to show you have read a historical book. It is genuinely good work that is refreshing even today.
In terms of some of those core doctrines, he is helpful and better than a lot that is out there today.
There are other things he spoke to that were contemporary to his day. This is a mark of a faithful pastor and theologian. He deals with eternal biblical truths which are timeless. There is a very breathtaking range of breadth and depth that he dealt with.
Kelly:
We should say something about the volume of his works. He wrote something like 80 titles. He wrote prodigiously. Especially for the 17th century with a quill pen and candlelight going. Not to mention illnesses and that he was not just a theologian in residence somewhere. He was a pastor, an ecclesiastical statesman, an academic dean, and vice-chancellor. He was a busy man.
West:
When I was trying to summarize the volumes, it runs just around 9500 pages. Sometimes the font is small. You realized this guy is writing with the quill pen, working in these conditions. In terms of the summary, it is not an abridgment. To do justice in an abridgment you still have 6000 pages of reading. The summary gets down to about 350 pages total for all the volumes together. The summary is in my words, but it is helpful given the volume of what he did. A lot of people find it daunting. I wanted to try to do it but did not know where to start. Starting with the summaries could be a good place as a guide to see the general content of the book, and the basic points and arguments that he uses.
Zaspel:
What were his most important works for his own day?
Kelly:
As Steve was alluding to there were several works where he wrote to someone. His work on perseverance is essentially a 500-page book review. His work on Christology is the same. If you try to get away from the polemics of it, his work on the Holy Spirit was the most enduring of his works. Piper thought it was the most important. Later, he wrote his Hebrews commentary. It is the longest commentary of the New Testament in the English language. It feels at times archaic or verbose, but it is very impressive. It was mentioned at his funeral that it was the hallmark of all his production.
Zaspel:
What would you consider the most important of his works for us today?
Kelly:
His works on piety seem to be the most relevant and useful. The things in volume six on the mortification of sin and indwelling sin are also important. His work on communion with the triune God and the glories of Christ are great. Those are the most accessible, important, and relevant today.
West:
I agree. His work on Christology is excellent. His works on the Holy Spirit and the mortification of sin are important. There is an atmosphere of the heaviness of sin. It is also not dramatic but very thorough where he wants us to take sin seriously and its effects seriously. There is a Godward and Christward orientation that you see.
You get the sense he takes Christ seriously and loves him. He is impressed by Christ and wants to be conformed to Christ. Over time it gets weightier that he took following Jesus Christ and the Bible seriously. That is an encouragement and rebuke for the Western Church. I found myself personally challenged about various things. Because his works on spirituality are so rooted in doctrine and scriptural truth, they will be relevant as long as the English language is being read.
Zaspel:
Would you describe his work largely as polemic or pastoral?
West:
I think the distinction is valid in terms of organizing our perspectives. I would not want to debate him after having read his works. He is very able with rhetoric and is obviously a brilliant person. I got the sense that he just does not want to engage in academic gamesmanship. When he wrote he was truly pursuing and defending truth. There is an edge in some of the interactions that he had when he wrote on Catholicism or on being a non-conformist. I got the sense that his polemics where genuinely in defense of the truth for the good of his people and for the good of the people of the church.
Kelly:
The polemics really were from a pastoral heart. He was very earnest and gave great effort to try to protect his people from Socinianism. I do not think his ecclesiology is controversial unless you are Presbyterian. He did not write them to be controversial. It just proves it is hard to categorize his works completely. There are some works that are plainly pastoral.
West:
I have never been terribly concerned or worked up about different structures of church government. For some, it is a bigger issue. I thought highly of his writing on the importance and the role of eldership and deacons. I found them thought-provoking and challenging. There is a lot that can be related to us in his works. I have found it very refreshing to have his high view of the church. A lot of his works did seem to justify being a non-conformist and talked about church union. There are a lot of works about schism and why we aren’t guilty of schism.
Kelly:
He does not hold to a controversial ecclesiology and is writing to fellow Congregationalists. He wrote to help them nail down specifics on their practices. Then you have things happening later post the restoration. He was on the outside then and needed to argue for toleration. Owen was writing some of those works sometimes anonymously. There was a time when he was writing pamphlets anonymously because he had to.
Zaspel:
What did you find striking? And what might be your favorite works of Owen?
West:
That first volume deals with Christology, the glory and beauty of Christ. That is a great place to start for a variety of reasons. It is very positive and quality work. The theology is good and sound. It is the best when I think of Puritan writing. There is a depth and beauty. I found that very helpful. I enjoy his sermons also. Reading is not the same as hearing a sermon but I appreciate the points he brought out from the text. There were different points on the mortification of sin that I found very edifying. Some of the ways he dealt with controversy. There is a bit of an edge to him but he is also gentle.
Kelly:
What I found very real at first was that he was respectful and kind. Also, he wanted union and love. There are some who say even though I wouldn’t feel comfortable worshipping with you in your church I pray for you, love you, and hope you will pray for me and us as well. In our day there is a polarization politically in society. The way evangelicals are treating each other is not always loving. There were some helpful attitudes there on how to engage in controversy. There is a way to lovingly affirm each other while not compromising on truth. I found that was helpful.
West:
In his last work, The Glory of Christ, he found out literally on his deathbed that his friend Nathaniel Ponder got it published for him. Owen said that sometime soon he would behold that glory which he wrote about and only grasp at. His deathbed meditation in his final days has a real sweetness to it.
Zaspel:
How has your study of Owen been profitable for your own pastoral ministry?
Kelly:
Several times I have gone to Owen as our elders are thinking through a matter of polity. I am a guy who has benefitted from 9 Marks and their polity. In general, I have benefited from the Puritans as a Congregationalist in thinking through matters of ecclesiology on a deep level. That has helped my pastoral ministry.
West:
In the last six months of working through Owen, there were certain times in a Bible study or class where something you have read is fresh and relevant to the text. I was not sharing all my reading with my students or the church every Sunday but like anything else that is edifying, it all goes into your mind and heart. There were times I found something thought provoking that I was able to share and help others learn too. This was a good part of it and a balanced diet of reading that I found.
Zaspel:
Okay, talk to us about Owen’s writing style. It’s well known that Owen is not light reading, but how do you describe it? Dense? Thick? Ponderous? Stilted? What?
West:
It was a writer’s dream. You can easily summarize his works. Adjusting for the fact that it was written in the 1600s, some of the vocabulary might not be completely familiar. The syntax is different in terms of sentences and so on. I found it not to be that bad in terms of readability. Once you make those adjustments it was reasonably clear. One of the reasons for that is they differentiate his main points from his sub-points. There were round brackets for points and then sub-points underneath were in square brackets. I got used to it and was able to understand the layout. There is a real logical progression.
People should not be afraid. It is a lot more manageable than people might think. The writing is deep and dense, it is packed full of good things. He started with a concept and broke it down and looked for coherence. Some academics have discovered today that you do not rest until you work to the bottom of the issue. He did that theologically and biblically. Every step is taking you somewhere. I think it is a lot better than our academic stuff that is written today.
Kelly:
It does take some getting used to. He was known for his literary gait. You have to keep track of the long sentences and words. What I tell people who are reading Owen for the first time is to reread things, read out loud, and do not be afraid to move on. You must dig to learn, and it seems like another language sometimes. You can get used to it and read it normally.
Zaspel:
Ryan, before we go tell us about the John Owen project from Crossway that you’re involved in.
Kelly:
It is a republication of the complete works of Owen. It will be everything that is in the Banner of Truth edition plus more. There are a couple of things not in the Banner edition like Latin and biblical theology. What we are doing is modernizing Owen but being faithful to the original text. We have first editions to us now online that weren’t available in the 1850’s. There will be headings and definitions of archaic words. We explain every little reference in footnotes. We redo the historical introduction to each of them. It will be 30 volumes. It will be a nice-looking, quality set.
Zaspel:
Thanks, much to you both, and especially you, Steve, for this monumental work you’d done for our readers in giving them Owen in manageable portions. I’ve seen them all, and I look forward to working our way through with everyone this year.
If any of you out there would like to follow along and finally make it through Owen, click the link below to find out how to join us.
Ryan, Steve—thanks so much.
Kelly and West:
Thanks, Fred.
Buy the books
THE WORKS OF JOHN OWEN, by John Owen